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 Tapering androgens is pretty much worthless (unless it's the opposite & your goal is front-loading), so I say just do this: - Run 300mg/day for the Full 6 Weeks, and go Into PCT. If, you find gains are serioulsy slowing down or not coming in the final two weeks, up your dose to 400mg. - Looking to attempt to tackle potential androgenic sides from a dose-protocol angle is going at things the wrong way. You want your dosage to ellicit some degree of androgenic sides; that's how you know the 1-AD is undergoing the enzymatic conversion in your body to reach 1-Testosterone. The key is looking for ways to keep them manageable without jeapordizing your dosage. So, with that said, here are a few possible stack additions that may assist in this regard: - For prostate healthy/safety: a Lycophene supplement &/or Saw Palmetto extract - For treating/reducing acne: other than OTC/drug-store acne medications, your best bet is to buy bulk Vitamin B-5 ( Pantothenic Acid). @ 3g/day, it's pretty hard for breakouts to go down. At 5g/day, even some of the heaviest steroid cyclers are able to preserve that adorable, 'baby face' look.  Look into it, it's good stuff. - For 1-Test Lethargy: For starters, stacking your 1-AD/ 1-Test with another androgen (especially an aromatizing one like 4-androstenediol [4-AD]) will give you a lot more energy and will alleviate a great deal of the 'zombified' feel most first-time 1-Test users report experiencing to one degree or another. If you wish to forgo the PH route, E/C stacks & Nootropic stacks (particularly one consisting of Vinpocetine/ DMAE/ Acetyl-l-Carnitine) both work quite well, as does just taking 200g of caffeine along with 3g of l-Tyrosine. Leptigen, surprisingly enough, is also one of the few compounds that seems to totally negate 1-Test lethargy, quite likely through its effects on neural signalling. "So next time you [PLINK=4481]see[/PLINK] the homey and his rims spin/ just know my mind is working just like them/ the rims that is..." - S. Carter
www.mindandmuscle.net
www.avantlabs.com
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ok, thanks... as far as DHT conversion, i've read every article on this site, but i still can't really get a sense of its frequency. some say ( ergopharm included, obviously) that it's relatively minimal, while others say it comprises a big part of potential side effects. would the lenght of the cycle have any effect on reducing the total amount of DHT conversion? in other words, would more mg for a shorter time be more or less DHT-inducing than less mg for a longer time? (assume 400-600mg for 4 weeks as opposed to 300mg for six weeks). sorry if this is another dumb question, guys... just trying to get my facts straight. btw, loki's initial answer displayed some pretty impressive erudition... where do you guys learn about all this stuff? just forums and internet research? geez something tritely profound
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As to how I know what I know...God knows...  . I'm kind of the 'wunderkinder' of this wacky little world. But to say I have a sick, bordering on outright OCD-fascination with human physiology & athletic performance is a good start, not to mention the fact that I'm contractually obligated to say smart stuff every now & then, b/c Mike said if I just bashed newbies 24/7 he'd fire my ass pronto... But I digress. As far as DHT conversion, it's wierd, because 1-Test is actually a metabolic byproduct of DHT itself. But, at the same time, contrary to what some claim, I'm almost certain that 1-Test & 1-AD can re-convert somehow, although-- unless something very recent has come along-- there is really no scientific consensus in regards to both the pathway & the conversion %. It's obvious 1-Test is highly androgenic, as androgenic assays in lab-rats show that prostate growth is = if not a little higher than an equivalent dose of pure Test, so there's obviously something afoot there. But, then again, at the same time, BPH (benign [re: bad] prostate hypertrophy) can't occur in the absence of estrogen, and 1-Test doesn't aromatize, so-- to be perfectly honest w. ya-- it's damn-hard to say...  | QUOTE | | would the lenght of the cycle have any effect on reducing the total amount of DHT conversion? |
Well, yes, obviously-- but I mean, it's simple logic. If it spends less time in your system, then there's just less conversion period. The more 1-Test you cycle, the more androgenic activity you'll experience on your cycle; it's just simple math... "So next time you [PLINK=4481]see[/PLINK] the homey and his rims spin/ just know my mind is working just like them/ the rims that is..." - S. Carter
www.mindandmuscle.net
www.avantlabs.com
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| QUOTE (Gotabuzz12 @ Feb 12 2004, 11:17 AM) | ok, thanks... as far as DHT conversion, i've read every article on this site, but i still can't really get a sense of its frequency. some say (ergopharm included, obviously) that it's relatively minimal, while others say it comprises a big part of potential side effects. would the lenght of the cycle have any effect on reducing the total amount of DHT conversion? in other words, would more mg for a shorter time be more or less DHT-inducing than less mg for a longer time? (assume 400-600mg for 4 weeks as opposed to 300mg for six weeks). sorry if this is another dumb question, guys... just trying to get my facts straight.
btw, loki's initial answer displayed some pretty impressive erudition... where do you guys learn about all this stuff? just forums and internet research? geez |
Yes, 1-test reportedly converts to DHT through some pathway... but not to a large degree. One thing to keep in mind is that androgenic sides are not necessarily related to level of DHT conversion, a steroid can cause androgenic sides in and of itself. Regarding your second question... my inclination would be to think that a shorter, higher-dose cycle would cause less risk of long-term side effects (BPH, MPB), but I don't really have a good reason for thinking this.
David Tolson
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I'm about to start my first PH cycle. I purchased the 1-AD/ 6-OXO combo from here. I will be doing a 4 week cycle. Starting with 600mg/day, going up to 900mg/day, in the middle of this cycle and then going back to 600mg/day for the end of the cycle. My question is about 6-OXO. The very next day after I finish my 3 bottles of 1-AD I understand is the day to start the 6-OXO. What is everyone's recommended dosage for 6-OXO. How many pills per day, when during the day? I've heard so many different opinions. I only have one bottle. With the fact that I'm taking 3 bottles of the 1-AD (180 pills), is only one bottle of 6-OXO sufficient, or do I need another bottle. Need help. Also, I'm eating a 4000 caloric diet. In bulking phase right now. When I finish the 1-AD is it correct to maintain the same diet while on 6-OXO or should I drop the calories a bit. Thanks.
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Honestly, I'd like to see you run 600mg a day for however long that'll last (30 days, I guess?). I think you'd be happier with that. For the 6-OXO dosage, I like 600mg a day the first 3 days and 300mg a day thereafter (til the bottle runs out). You could just go with 300mg for 20 days, but honestly I don't think it makes a difference in recovery. For the timing, PA recommends taking the whole dose with your last meal. His reasoning is that estrogen levels peak at night, but I really don't think you'll see much of a difference than if you took it spread out throughout the day in 2-3 doses. All at once is a little more convenient, so you might just want to do that. "I don't like people who take drugs...Customs men, for example." - Mitch Miller
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Patrick Bateman is my Hero
Group: Moderators
Posts: 1193
Member No.: 2834
Joined: 28-March 03
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| QUOTE (Erik Bednarz @ Feb 17 2004, 04:13 PM) | I'm about to start my first PH cycle. I purchased the 1-AD/6-OXO combo from here. I will be doing a 4 week cycle. Starting with 600mg/day, going up to 900mg/day, in the middle of this cycle and then going back to 600mg/day for the end of the cycle. My question is about 6-OXO. The very next day after I finish my 3 bottles of 1-AD I understand is the day to start the 6-OXO.
What is everyone's recommended dosage for 6-OXO. How many pills per day, when during the day? I've heard so many different opinions. I only have one bottle. With the fact that I'm taking 3 bottles of the 1-AD (180 pills), is only one bottle of 6-OXO sufficient, or do I need another bottle. Need help.
Also, I'm eating a 4000 caloric diet. In bulking phase right now. When I finish the 1-AD is it correct to maintain the same diet while on 6-OXO or should I drop the calories a bit.
Thanks. |
I personally would buy at least one more bottle of 6-oxo (prob 2).....I start feeling the 6-oxo bringing back my "buddies" after 2 weeks or so and that is at 6 pills a day, so, I go through 3-4 bottles depending on duration and products in the PH regimen. Also, I might just be one of the only guys who like trib products after 6-oxo supplementation, and I ma looking forward to syntrax's new version of fuzu...
"Lets put the women and children to bed and go lookin' for dinner!"Joe Kane, THE PROGRAM
"Getting the pump is like cumming with woman!"Arnold, PUMPING IRON  Max32 is an imaginary character. Any information regarding AAS is for fictional purposes only. He does not use AAS and he does not know how to obtain them, nor does he condone their use.
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Thanks for the info. What I plan on doing is start taking 1-AD on Feb. 23rd, this will take me to March 23rd when I finish the 3 bottles of 1-AD @ 600mg per day. Then the next day, March 24th, is when I should start taking 6-OXO. Kow, from what you said, 300mg per day should be enough as my dosage. I believe one pill is 300mg, so then one bottle will last me 60 days. If I take 600mg per day which is two pills a day, that will take me to April 22nd. Do you think this is a good plan? If I take 2 bottles of 6-OXO at 600mg/day, this seems to me that I'll be on 6-OXO twice as long as the actual PH. Max32, 6 pills a day is 1800mg, isn't that kinda high. I need to figure this out, because I don't want to take too little but definitely want to take enough. Also, can anyone help out with the diet I should follow after my PH cycle, while I'm taking 6-OXO. Like I said, I'm currently on a 4000 caloric diet. When I start taking 6-OXO should I continue this diet, or do I need to lower my intake. Also, how long after I finish the 6-OXO can I start my cutting phase. Thank in advance, I really appreciate the help. -Erik
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Patrick Bateman is my Hero
Group: Moderators
Posts: 1193
Member No.: 2834
Joined: 28-March 03
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| QUOTE (Erik Bednarz @ Feb 18 2004, 01:31 PM) | Thanks for the info. What I plan on doing is start taking 1-AD on Feb. 23rd, this will take me to March 23rd when I finish the 3 bottles of 1-AD @ 600mg per day.
Then the next day, March 24th, is when I should start taking 6-OXO.
Kow, from what you said, 300mg per day should be enough as my dosage. I believe one pill is 300mg, so then one bottle will last me 60 days. If I take 600mg per day which is two pills a day, that will take me to April 22nd. Do you think this is a good plan? If I take 2 bottles of 6-OXO at 600mg/day, this seems to me that I'll be on 6-OXO twice as long as the actual PH.
Max32, 6 pills a day is 1800mg, isn't that kinda high.
I need to figure this out, because I don't want to take too little but definitely want to take enough.
Also, can anyone help out with the diet I should follow after my PH cycle, while I'm taking 6-OXO. Like I said, I'm currently on a 4000 caloric diet. When I start taking 6-OXO should I continue this diet, or do I need to lower my intake. Also, how long after I finish the 6-OXO can I start my cutting phase.
Thank in advance, I really appreciate the help.
-Erik |
if im not mistaken, 1 pill = 100 mg
"Lets put the women and children to bed and go lookin' for dinner!"Joe Kane, THE PROGRAM
"Getting the pump is like cumming with woman!"Arnold, PUMPING IRON Max32 is an imaginary character. Any information regarding AAS is for fictional purposes only. He does not use AAS and he does not know how to obtain them, nor does he condone their use.
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| QUOTE (Erik Bednarz @ Feb 18 2004, 01:31 PM) | Also, can anyone help out with the diet I should follow after my PH cycle, while I'm taking 6-OXO. Like I said, I'm currently on a 4000 caloric diet. When I start taking 6-OXO should I continue this diet, or do I need to lower my intake. Also, how long after I finish the 6-OXO can I start my cutting phase.
Thank in advance, I really appreciate the help.
-Erik |
If you want to, you can reduce calories during PCT, as long as you stay above your maintenance level... probably 3000+ cals. Reducing calories definitely isn't a necessity though, the more the better to help with recovery. After you are done with PCT you can start reducing calories for the cutting phase.
David Tolson
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| QUOTE (Max32 @ Feb 18 2004, 02:11 PM) | | if im not mistaken, 1 pill = 100 mg |
Correct. 6-OXO is expensive stuff
David Tolson
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Max32, thanks again. You are right. It is 100mg per pill. I was at work when I replied before and didn't have the bottle in front of me. So 2 bottles at 600mg per day should last me 20 days. Do you think this will be enough? The bottle now that I'm reading it does say to take it for cycles of 4 to 6 weeks. This would require 3 bottles. Just doesn't seem right to me for some reason. But i guess that's why I'm new to this stuff. Also, thanks shpongled for the PCT diet info. By the way, any other products recommended while on this cycle. I already purchased Vitamin B-5 since I heard from several others it helps maintain acne breakouts, to a point of course. Anything else I could consider. Thanks again, Erik
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For those who have tried 1-AD, what kind of side effects did you guys get, if any? Or have you heard of side effects that are common from others that have done this cycle? -Erik
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Member
Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 224
Member No.: 14329
Joined: 8-January 04
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Eric, I've only done one cycle of 1AD, which was also my first PH cycle, so I'll share my "virgin" experience with you. As background, I'm 42 yrs old, 219lbs and have trained regularly for 24 years. In my cycle I used 600mgs a day of 1AD and 1,4 doil spread out evenly through the day, dosing approx. 2-3 hours apart. I also added a 100mg dose of 1,4 dine 100mgs AM and PM to add some potential estrogen to the mix. This translated into a total of 1,400mgs a day of PH. In all honestly, my most notable side effect was that I got really big really fast. I also had/have a considerable amount of blot, particularly in my belly (even though I was really trying to keep the estrogen under control). I also noticed that my pumps were very intense...my muscles would feel hard and "full" after a work out. More so than they ever had before. It was disconcerting at first, but I came to enjoy it rather quickly. I noticed no lethargy, in fact, quite the opposite; I was very alert and invigorated. But remember I was adding 800mgs of 1,4 doil/dine to the 1AD specifically to combat lethargy. Lastly, I noticed that I tended to cramp more often, though never while working out. Indeed even a week after I'm off cycle I still cramp a bit more than usual. I'm running 6OXO post cycle, and it's not taking the blot off as fast as I'd like, but I've not lost any of my gains yet either. I may try moving back up to 600mgs daily. Then again, maybe it?s not bloat?maybe I'm just a fat old man ;-) I hope that helps. I honestly don't know how many of these sides were related to the 1AD or the 1,4 stack or other variables in my life at the time (and there were a few). But I consider these sides more than acceptable compared to the gains I built and am, so far, retaining. Ronn
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Thanks Ronn, great info. How many bottles of 6-OXO did you use for post cycle? -Erik
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Thanks Ronn, I talked to Mike and he recommended another bottle at 600 mg a day. So now it's just a matter of seeing what'll happen. I'll be starting 1-AD tomorrow morning. I can't wait. Talked to my cousin at my gym along with one of his friends, and they both happento have done 1-AD and actually my cousin is on his 2nd cycle of it now. They both rave about it and how they put on a lot of size. This should be interesting, experiencing my first PH cycle. Thanks again everyone, for the help. -Erik
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1-ad side effects, dosing, how to lessen?
