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 For a fat loss stack, would you rather have... |  |
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Member
Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 145
Member No.: 8024
Joined: 16-September 03
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The original Clenbutrx, or a stack with 25mg Ephedrine HCL, 200mg caffeine and 5mg Yohimbine HCL? For reference - Here are the clen's ingredients: Mahuang - 312 mg Caffeine - 200mg Citrus Aurantium @ 95% Synephrine - 60mg Vinpocetine - 10mg (never figured out what this was) Yohimbine HCL - 6mg Bioperine - 5mg
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They have 60mg of 95% synephrine in one serving of that Mo'-Fo'!?!? Tell me that's a typo (6mg, right?) before I go breaking-and-entering to steal a box... To actually answer your question, Clenbutrx would be a slightly better thermogenic because of the synephrine (and I always have a soft spot for supps. that include vinpocetine), but it's also ridiculously more expensive than just making your own stack right?? I don't think there'd be too much difference between the two to be honest. Clenbutrx is a bit better, but not significantly. It all comes down to cost & what you're willing to spend for your thermo stack... "So next time you [PLINK=4481]see[/PLINK] the homey and his rims spin/ just know my mind is working just like them/ the rims that is..." - S. Carter
www.mindandmuscle.net
www.avantlabs.com
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Vinpocetine = a nootropic that enhances mental clarity & focus Bioperine = a standardized extract that enhances the absorption of other thermogenic compounds by allowing more of them to escape just being metabolized after ingestion ECY is pretty badass on it's own. The only things I really see being worthwhile to add to ECY are synephrine, coleus forskolii (however the hell you spell it), and tyramine &/or hordenine (you need a sufficient dosage though, so you have to source it yourself). Green tea is decent I suppose, but you need quite a bit to actually see a legitimate increase in thermogenesis. Aside from the ECY, other cutting supplements I use are transdermal 7-OXO DHEA, Nicotine, Pharmaceuticals, Leptigen (which is my source for synephrine) and T3 (I left out Fish Oil, but I basically consider Fish Oil supplementation to be a 'way of life' so I rarely mention it...). Is there a stand-alone synephrine product?? NO, and I keep ASKING FOR ONE *ahem!! Mike ahem!!!*, but no, there is not. GNC used to carry synephrine capsules, but, much to my chagrin, they discontinued them due to FDA bitching. I would LOVE to be able to get synephrine HCl (or even a >90% extract) from 1Fast, but-- unfortunately-- at this moment, I order most of my thermogenic nutrients in bulk from Shanghai... "So next time you [PLINK=4481]see[/PLINK] the homey and his rims spin/ just know my mind is working just like them/ the rims that is..." - S. Carter
www.mindandmuscle.net
www.avantlabs.com
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Member
Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 145
Member No.: 8024
Joined: 16-September 03
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How much green tea do you think would be sufficient? The store has 400mg pills. I didn't find forskholi or the other things you mentioned in the store... I know BB sells forks but I rather order from here. Does T3 have any advantage over Guggulbolic Extreme? It seems that GE has more content for a lower price. What am I missing? I never tried fish oil... How does it help exactly? How much should be taken? Looks like it's well worth it for it's ultra-low price. For EFAs I eat PB/Almonds and Flax Seed... although never around the workout. Usually only in my pre-bed meal. Should I still take the caps? (I do use canola oil for frying stuff, but I guess that doesn't count for much) Leptigen costs A LOT.  WAAAY over the budget. I'm looking for something simple and cheap in pill form, not fancy expensive stuff.
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| QUOTE | | How much green tea do you think would be sufficient? The store has 400mg pills. |
2-4g/day, preferrably closer to the 4 for a significant effect, although I also don't like megadosing things unless I feel I have good cause to do so, so it's your call, especially since this can get expensive...
| QUOTE | | Does T3 have any advantage over Guggulbolic Extreme? It seems that GE has more content for a lower price. What am I missing? |
No, I'm talking about liothyronine, synthetic thyroid = T3. The actual stuff that circulates in your body & figures intimately into metabolic rate/REE/ protein synthesis/RQ.. | QUOTE | never tried fish oil...
How does it help exactly? How much should be taken? Looks like it's well worth it for it's ultra-low price. |
Short story: taking 6-20g of Fish Oil/ED (more if you are heavier, less if you are leaner) over the long-term will basically alters you genetics to promote a leaner, more musclar phenotype. A good-quality Fish Oil source is probably the single best dietary supplement you can get... | QUOTE | For EFAs I eat PB/Almonds and Flax Seed... although never around the workout. Usually only in my pre-bed meal. Should I still take the caps?
(I do use canola oil for frying stuff, but I guess that doesn't count for much) |
Nuts are good. Ditch the Flax though & just use Extra-Virgin Olive Oil...
| QUOTE | Leptigen costs A LOT. WAAAY over the budget.
I'm looking for something simple and cheap in pill form, not fancy expensive stuff.
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Life...she is full of compromises...
"So next time you [PLINK=4481]see[/PLINK] the homey and his rims spin/ just know my mind is working just like them/ the rims that is..." - S. Carter
www.mindandmuscle.net
www.avantlabs.com
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[Short story: taking 6-20g of Fish Oil/ED (more if you are heavier, less if you are leaner) over the long-term will basically alters you genetics to promote a leaner, more musclar phenotype. A good-quality Fish Oil source is probably the single best dietary supplement you can get...] What time frame are we calling "long term"?
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Member
Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 145
Member No.: 8024
Joined: 16-September 03
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Green Tea doesn't really have any side effects, does it? I need to research it a bit further first. Well, it's gonna be a while till my next order anyway. Doesn't T3 ultimately makes your thyroid less effective? I'd rather stay on the safe® side, I think. Are the Fish Oil caps linked from here good enough? I'll order a bunch. You say 6-20 caps daily? 20 grams of fat is starting to have a real impact on my diet.  (I'm 6' ~163 pounds ~10% btw) Why ditch the Flax? Doesn't it have a lot of necessary omegas? Good EFAs? What about olives instead of olive oil? I rather *eat* than *drink* my fats. Thanks for all the information, anyway! Though it seems like I won't be finding another magic pill to add to my stack right now.
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| QUOTE | | What time frame are we calling "long term"? |
Given phospholipid membrane turnover and the instability of N:3 fatty acids in said membrane, I'd say 2-3 months. Fish Oil should be taken/used year-round however, as it will make you healthier, happier, and improve muscle gains, fat loss, & nutrient partitioning-- all on the cellular level... | QUOTE | Green Tea doesn't really have any side effects, does it? I need to research it a bit further first. Well, it's gonna be a while till my next order anyway.
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Well, usually it contains some caffeine, but generally no. But yeah, I always recommend researching everything you put in your body... | QUOTE | Doesn't T3 ultimately makes your thyroid less effective? I'd rather stay on the safe® side, I think.
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Complicated. In short, exogenous (re: synthetic T3) thyroid will inhibit TSH and cause a decrease in natural thyroid production. Thus, when you come off T3, you will be hypothyroid for roughly ~ 1-2 months while TSH recovers and returns to normal. While T4 production will upregulate some to compensate, you will essentially have about a ~25% impairment in metabolic capabilities during this period. It's a high price to pay. Some think it is worth it, some don't. "So next time you [PLINK=4481]see[/PLINK] the homey and his rims spin/ just know my mind is working just like them/ the rims that is..." - S. Carter
www.mindandmuscle.net
www.avantlabs.com
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| QUOTE | Are the Fish Oil caps linked from here good enough? I'll order a bunch. You say 6-20 caps daily? 20 grams of fat is starting to have a real impact on my diet.
(I'm 6' ~163 pounds ~10% btw) |
I said 20g if you are quite overweight, less if you are leaner. I consider 10% BF to be 'lean,' thus, you should be taking only 6-10g/ED. Yes, the Fish Oil caps linked from here are perfectly good. | QUOTE | Why ditch the Flax? Doesn't it have a lot of necessary omegas? Good EFAs?
What about olives instead of olive oil? I rather *eat* than *drink* my fats. |
Yeah, but Fish Oil is better, and so is Olive Oil (do a search for "Olive AND Oil" with my user-name as I have explained why on at least one other thread here). Therefore, why use a 'third-rate' EFA source when you can use a second or a first-rate one? Simply put, Fish and Olive Oil(s) are 'Athlete Fats.' People who want to be strong, healthy, injury-free, and lean relative to the amount of LBM they carry should make these two fats comprise a large % of their daily fat intake... Olives contain only a minute amount of Olive Oil, so no, unfortunately, they do not make for an adequate substitute. Olive Oil is great for cooking though, so why not just cook with it all the time if you are looking for ways to get it into your diet. I mean, I just down it by the Tsp. or Tbsp., but if you prefer to not be quite that "Hard-core," just sautee some meat in it or mix it into veggies or sauces with some seasoning(s)... "So next time you [PLINK=4481]see[/PLINK] the homey and his rims spin/ just know my mind is working just like them/ the rims that is..." - S. Carter
www.mindandmuscle.net
www.avantlabs.com
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Member
Group: Advanced Members
Posts: 145
Member No.: 8024
Joined: 16-September 03
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Canola oil also shares some of the good qualities of olive/flax/ fish oil, no? By the way, I understand that you recommend fish over flax oil? Usually flax oil is considered to be the fat to go with. My mom says making food with olive oil doesn't taste great, so we settle for canola. We still use olive oil for seasoning some times (pastas and meats and such). I think it is time to move to a more reliable way of getting fats, though. I don't mind downing some with a spoon. If I can take a shot of 100 proof I can probably handle a table spoon of whatever.  (What's the significance of "Extra Virgin"?) I do LOVE PB and roasted almonds though! P.S - I do research everything, mostly. I read about ephedra for a long long while before I took the smallest dose I could find. Things like green tea are widespread though and therefor probably not very dangerous, which is why I care a bit less about going into it. I'll look into the rest of the stuff you wrote about oils, thanks.
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| QUOTE | | Canola oil also shares some of the good qualities of olive/flax/fish oil, no? |
 ...*just shakes head* | QUOTE | | By the way, I understand that you recommend fish over flax oil? Usually flax oil is considered to be the fat to go with. |
I don't care what Udo says, the enzymatic conversion rate of LA to EPA/DHA sucks, and can be impaired by an innumerable number of things, one in particular being the ingestion of caffeine. Seriously, Fish Oil puts Flax Oil to bed without its toys in terms of promoting body-comp. improvements, and I shall say no more... | QUOTE | | My mom says making food with olive oil doesn't taste great, so we settle for canola. |
 ...Sacrilege!!! | QUOTE | | I do LOVE PB and roasted almonds though! |
Ditto. I've now made Chocolate "Reese's Protein Pudding" the fundamental staple of my dietary protein intake... | QUOTE | | P.S - I do research everything, mostly. I read about ephedra for a long long while before I took the smallest dose I could find. Things like green tea are widespread though and therefor probably not very dangerous, which is why I care a bit less about going into it. |
If a high green tea intake was unsound from a health standpoint, Okinowans wouldn't boast the highest per capita rate(s) of longevity on the planet, because they down the stuff perpetually, as have most Asian cultures for centuries...
In fact, quite the opposite. From a health-standpoint, the catechins & polyphenols in green tea are some of the most potent naturally-occurring, free-radical scavenging anti-oxidants out there...
"So next time you [PLINK=4481]see[/PLINK] the homey and his rims spin/ just know my mind is working just like them/ the rims that is..." - S. Carter
www.mindandmuscle.net
www.avantlabs.com
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| QUOTE (Loki @ Mar 5 2004, 01:26 PM) | Vinpocetine = a nootropic that enhances mental clarity & focus
Bioperine = a standardized extract that enhances the absorption of other thermogenic compounds by allowing more of them to escape just being metabolized after ingestion |
Vinpo is also a PDE inhibitor of some kind, may be why they are including it in fat loss supps, don't know
The amount of bioperine is probably negligible...
| QUOTE | Is there a stand-alone synephrine product??
NO, and I keep ASKING FOR ONE *ahem!! Mike ahem!!!*, but no, there is not. GNC used to carry synephrine capsules, but, much to my chagrin, they discontinued them due to FDA bitching. I would LOVE to be able to get synephrine HCl (or even a >90% extract) from 1Fast, but-- unfortunately-- at this moment, I order most of my thermogenic nutrients in bulk from Shanghai... |
Working on it... everyone has been quite busy lately...
David Tolson
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| QUOTE (Kaner @ Mar 5 2004, 02:18 PM) | | How much green tea do you think would be sufficient? The store has 400mg pills. |
Those pills are only 70 mg EGCG each - I would take 6+ daily for fat loss. I take a gram daily of EGCG, but am going to lower that next month due to the hassle of the capping the bulk powder.
| QUOTE | | I didn't find forskholi or the other things you mentioned in the store... |
Although I was previously, I am no longer a fan of forskolin, for various reasons - -Lack of in vivo studies -Indications of undesirable effects in in vitro studies -Low - possibly very low - oral bioavailability -Non-specific mode of action - if it does reach tissues, it may do stuff everywhere - which is unnecessary and may be undesirable | QUOTE | I never tried fish oil...
How does it help exactly? How much should be taken? Looks like it's well worth it for it's ultra-low price. |
I recommend a lower dose of fish oil - 1-2 g EPA/DHA daily (2-6 g fish oil) whether bulking or cutting - I don't think it will have drastic/noticeable effects on body comp at any dose, but this amount is excellent for your health, and may provide some benefit and have less possibility of intefering with anabolism... David Tolson
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| QUOTE (MisterEd @ Mar 5 2004, 05:08 PM) | | Whats Up guys, I got a stack here which is vasopro and stacker 2 ef... Im primary goal is to cut down 7-10 in 3 weeks. Any recommendations on the best way to do it. I still do my cardio 5x and lift 5/6x per week. I am a little concerned about being on ephy while I work out... anyone got any tips and pointers. Would prefer from experienced folks but all advice is welcome. |
There have been a few studies indicating that ephedrine+caffeine is safe before intense exercise - however, I would not add in other stimulants to the mix.
David Tolson
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| QUOTE (Kaner @ Mar 5 2004, 05:35 PM) | | Green Tea doesn't really have any side effects, does it? I need to research it a bit further first. Well, it's gonna be a while till my next order anyway. |
I would recommend checking out the green tea article linked at the bottom if you want further information.. it is quite thorough
| QUOTE | Why ditch the Flax? Doesn't it have a lot of necessary omegas? Good EFAs?
What about olives instead of olive oil? I rather *eat* than *drink* my fats. |
Just to comment a little further on this - the flax will not hurt per se - but it is not a priority, when compared to the healthy oils Loki mentions. OTOH I don't see any reason not to add some flaxseed oil to your diet, especially if you can tolerate the taste (which isn't all that bad, if it isn't rancid). David Tolson
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| QUOTE (Kaner @ Mar 6 2004, 12:18 AM) | | What's this about canola?... give me a hint here. It has unsat fats and some omegas, no? I know it's not a replacement for the others, but still.... |
Canola oil is better than most oils - but I would draw the line at calling it a "healthy oil." I have read in numerous places that the fatty acid profile is misleading, and that it is a low quality oil, but I don't remember the specifics. Nevertheless - the o-6:o-3 ratio is 2:1, which by itself isn't all that bad (although not nearly as good as flaxseed or fish oils), but isn't really going to help much to offset the skewed ratio in most Western diets. It is high in oleic, but not as high as olive oil, and olive oil also has a lot less LA.
In summary, good oils:
-Fish oil
-Olive oil
-Flaxseed oil
-Hemp oil
Decent/tolerable oils:
-Canola oil (when not partially and/or fully hydrogenated)
-Peanut oil
-Soybean oil (when not partially and/or fully hydrogenated)
Oils to limit:
-Sunflower/safflower oils (sometimes high in o-9, but varies widely)
-Corn oil
Oils to avoid:
-Anything hydrogenated
-Animal fat
-Coconut, palm oil
| QUOTE | | Why do I take LESS fish oil for bulking, by the way? |
I don't know Loki's reasoning - but IMO it would be the other way around if anything, as membrane incorporation will be higher in the hypercaloric state.
David Tolson
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